In this interview, Des Long debunks the myth about Charles Haughey and the Provisional IRA, as a ‘fairy tale’. It is one that has resurfaced in a new book, ‘Charlie v Garret’, which is being promoted on Fianna Fáil’s ‘Bulletin‘ newsletter.
Long starts the interview by providing a brief outline of his career in the IRA before debunking the Great Lie about the Arms Crisis.
Long was spurred to give this interview to counter the account in ‘Charlie v Garret’.
The book is being promoted by Fianna Fail via its ‘Bulletin’ newsletter with a discount, as appears from the offer reproduced in the next picture:
The new book is excellent in all respects save for the Arms Crisis chapter which has attracted criticism, such as the following article in The Phoenix:
Transcript of the interview with Des Long:
David Burke (DB) (0:03) I’d like to welcome Des Long to this mini podcast and Des would you tell us very briefly who you are?
Desmond Long (DL) (0:14) I’m Desmond Long is my name. I’m a native of Limerick City and I joined the IRA in August 1959 (0:27) when I had left school.
DB: Was that the Limerick unit you would have joined? (0:33)
DL: Well you’d always joined the local unit. It was the Limerick City unit I joined. (0:39)
DB: I see, and who was the officer in command in Limerick at the time you joined? (0:44)
DL: Well when I joined it was Paddy Mulcahy. He was a member of the Army Council at that stage (0:51) and then he gave the command of Limerick City to a volunteer called Joe Quinn.(1:00)
DB: And if I’m not mistaken I think at some stage in 1962 you became the number two (1:07) to Joe Quinn. Is that correct? (1:10)
DL: Well I did. After the end of the campaign… (1:20)
DB: The Border Campaign? Is that what you’re talking about there? (1:24)
DL: The Border Campaign. Cathal Goulding took over as chief-of-staff. He set up a command unit (1:32) for Munster and Joe Quinn was the OC and Joe Quinn appointed me the adjutant of that unit. (1:40)
DB: Now your book will be coming out at some stage in 2026 and it will be replete with (1:49) details. So I’m going to leave some of the details – I’m going to skip over some of those (1:55) and bring us towards the end of the 1960s when there was a lot of tension within the IRA. There (2:03) was what I loosely call the Ó Brádaigh faction and the Goulding faction. Which (2:09) faction or side were you on during those tensions? (2:14)
DL: Well I wasn’t aware of those tensions because at that stage I had resigned from the Munster (2:22) command because it was going no place. I found that I was spending lots of my own money traveling (2:32) up and down, getting fellas to drive me up and down the Munster but I had no transport of my own at (2:40) that stage and I found that it was going no place. They had no intention of starting a campaign (2:51) against the British occupation.
DB: And by the end of the 1960s, shall we say 1968-1969, (3:00) what was taking place? (3:03)
DL: Well, Cathal Goulding as Chief of Staff was attempting to have the IRA become part of (3:14) to take to seats in Leinster House, which as Republicans we wouldn’t do. And they were (3:23) pushing towards that. And as well as that he called a convention in 1967 and (3:37) they passed a resolution at that convention that Cathal Goulding was going to reduce the IRA to (3:50) between 100 and 120 people. That was not where – he should have been building up an army, (3:58) he was downgrading it. And we as committed Republicans felt that he was doing this, (4:07) that these would be to take care of us if we didn’t follow his line, we would be dealt with. (4:15)
DB: I see, I see. Were there political differences in terms of right-wing views and (4:21) left-wing views as well at this time? (4:23)
DL: Well, there was. I would be left-wing in my thinking, but I wasn’t communist. [The] tendency was (4:30) to go communist. He had Dr. Roy Johnson, who was an out-and-out communist and they were pushing this (4:38) communist line, which as Republicans, I wouldn’t accept.
DB: (4:45) There was a convention that was held in Knockvicar at the end of 1969 (4:53) as an important and significant figure in the IRA at the time. I assume you were invited to that. (4:59)
DL: You weren’t invited to that. You had to be proposed by your unit and then travel (5:05) to it. There was five of us going to that convention. There was Paddy Mulcahy (5:14) from Limerick, Alf Larkin, myself, Dennis McInerney from Ennis and there was Sean O’Neill, the five. (5:33) We went to the place where we were to be picked up, waited there and we weren’t picked up. (5:40) Now, that didn’t surprise me because I knew the man picking us up.(5:48)
DB: Seamus Costello, was it? (5:49)
DL: Seamus Costello. Would be very happy if we didn’t attend it because he knew what our views would (5:55) be and we were not picked up to go to the convention. (5:59)
DB: And what happened after the convention? (6:03)
DL: Well, the convention decided that they were going to accept Leinster House, (6:08) the entry into Leinster House and all this kind of thing. And we as Republicans, a number of us (6:16) were not prepared to do that. They included Seán MacStíofáin, Ruairí Ó Brádaigh and others. (6:28)
DB: Paddy Mulcahy? (6:29)
DL: Paddy Mulcahy, of course, the five of us who were going to the convention were not prepared to accept that.(6:36) So, we decided we would have a meeting on the 22nd, 23rd of December 1969. (6:49) And we met in Victor Fagg’s house in Athlone and we set up an Army Council. (6:59) So, we had to split from the Goulding company and set up an army council.(7:04) And this was a provisional army council until a full convention could be called. (7:14) The full convention was called, we set up the Provisional IRA at that stage and started recruiting. (7:24) We then had a convention in November of the following year.(7:35) Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, who chaired this, one of the things he said, (7:40) “Now this would be no longer a provisional army council, this would be an official army council. (7:48) And, of course, it was the press that became called it, the Provisionals. (7:56)
DB: And the name stuck.(7:58)
DL: Yeah.
DB: Now, I think an army executive, which is different to an army council, was also elected. (8:05) in Athlone, that’s Victor Fagg’s residence. (8:09)
DL: What happens at every convention, it’s an Executive that’s elected. (8:16) The Executive consists of 12 members who are volunteers, and those 12 members then meet (8:25) and select seven members to form an Army Council. (8:31) The Army Council then meets and elects the chief-of-staff. (8:38)
DB: And in your own words, what is the function of the Executive, aside from that? (8:47)
DL: Well, the Executive are a watchdog then on the Army Council and meet at least every four months (8:57) with members of the Army Council and discuss what has been happening and offer suggestions (9:05) where necessary and objections to whatever they may have been doing.(9:14)
DB: I’ve heard some commentators loosely compare it to a board of directors in a company that (9:20) would give guidance and act, if you like, as an oversight body. (9:24) Would that be in any way correct? (9:26)
DL: That would be correct, yes. (9:28)
DB: Now, I believe you were elected as secretary to the Army Executive.
DL: Yeah, well, that’s correct. (9:38) I was on the Executive and I was appointed Secretary. (9:46)
DB: And you were there until 1986? (9:49)
DL: That’s correct. I had the position of Secretary till 1986. (9:54)
DB: And you held in the early 1970s, you held a number of roles (9:59) inside the Provisional IRA. (10:00) I think one of them, you were Director of Training for a while.(10:03)
DL: What happened was that I had to go on the run because (10:09) there was a warrant issued for me here in Limerick. (10:12) And I went on the run. (10:14) And Seán MacStíofáin appointed me as Director of Training.(10:23) I ran camps, training camps. (10:26)
DB: And you were also Director of Finance at one stage as well in the very early 1970s. (10:30)
DL: What happwned was that I was working as director of training.(10:40) and then I was appointed to the IRA. (10:48)
DB: General headquarters staff? (10:50)
DL: The general headquarters staff. (10:53) And I was an assistant officer to Martin Shannon, who was Director of Publicity.(11:01) And Martin Shannon resigned. (11:04) And then I took over as director of Publicity. (11:07) And as director of publicity, I remember the only thing I can remember is I (11:11) published the last issue of An Toglach, which was a magazine that went down to IRA units every two (11:23) months.(11:24)
DB: Did you keep a copy of that? (11:27) Have you kept a copy of that? (11:29)
DB: No. (11:30) If you have a copy of that, you’re convicted of being a member. (11:34)
DB: Of course.(11:35) Of course. (11:36)
DL: I know that there are copies, Paddy Mulcahy’s copies went to Limerick University and they’re (11:43) in the Paddy Mulcahy collection. (11:45)
DB: They’ve been preserved for history’s sake.(11:47) Okay. (11:49) You also were the driver of the chief of staff of the Provisional IRA, Seán MacStíofáin. (11:55) Is that correct? (11:57)
DL: Yes.(11:57) I used to drive him on occasions and I also drove other people. (12:08) I kept a low profile. (12:11) My car wasn’t known.(12:14)
DB: Yes. (12:14) Okay. (12:16) So you were at the epicenter of the IRA, the birth of the IRA.(12:24) You held all those positions that were occupied. (12:27) Were you aware of attempts, indeed, were you involved in attempts to procure arms for the (12:34) Provisional IRA? (12:35)
DL: Oh. one of the first things we had to do, we were very low on arms, was to procure arms. (12:44) And after the attacks by loyalists on nationalist areas, arms began to come in very much so.(12:54) And [you’d] meet fellows who would say, “I have arms.” (13:02) You know, [it was] amazing the amount of people in just the Limerick area who told me they had (13:08) weapons. (13:09) I remember one dump we went in and we went to get the weapons and there was nothing left, (13:16) only the butt and the stock.(13:21) It just rotted away. (13:23) But there was one other- (13:24)
DB: Were those weapons that had been dumped after the Border Campaign? (13:28)
DL: After the War of Independence and the Civil War. (13:31)
DB: They weren’t wrapped in oil or anything like that? No?(13:34)
DL: There’s one dump we got in, I remember there were up to 20 weapons and the weapons had (13:39) been coated with engine oil and anything.(13:45) And we just had to clean them down and they were in perfect working order. (13:49) We were getting weapons, like that was 20, but we were getting them in ones and twos, (13:54) but that wasn’t sufficient. (13:56) We knew we would have to get more.(13:59) A lot of the weapons that the IRA had been disposed of. (14:04) Cathal Goulding, as a matter of fact, had sold weapons to the Free Wales Army. (14:10)
DB: Earlier in the 60s, I believe that took place.(14:14)
DL: In the 60s. (14:16)
DB: OK, now, one of the reasons, or maybe the main reason at the moment that you want to (14:21) come forward and do this interview is because you want to finally put on record 14:29) your complete disagreement with the stories that have been going around for well over (14:37) 50 years.(14:39) that Fianna Fáil, Charles Haughey, Neil Blaney and James Gibbons and people like that were (14:44) in any way involved in arming – Jack Lynch – in arming the IRA. (14:49)
DL: If Charlie Haughey came to me, I would run a mile. (14:54) I didn’t trust him.(14:56) He wasn’t a Republican, but all this talk that’s going on. (15:00) He had nothing. (15:02) The Fianna Fáil people had nothing to do with the setting up of the Provisions.(15:06) I was at the meeting in Athlone. (15:09) We set up the Provisional Army Council. (15:11) They had absolutely nothing to do with it.(15:15) And if he was involved, I would not have been involved. (15:20) Any Republican would not have been involved with Charlie Haughey. (15:25)
DB: And what about the Irish Army, military intelligence in particular? (15:31)
DL: Their job was to spy on us.(15:34) We had nothing to do with them. (15:36) I see. (15:37) I see.(15:38)
DB: Where do all these stories then come that the IRA was set up by Haughey and Blaney, (15:46) that Haughey and Blaney were arming you, trying to arm you? (15:50)
DL: There’s no truth in it whatsoever. (15:52) These are all the lies. (15:54) The problem with history nowadays, it is being written – fairy tales.(16:00) Some of these people are writing that Charlie Haughey had nothing to do with it. (16:05) Their intention was to destroy us. (16:08)
DB: But let’s focus on a little bit on Charlie Haughey.(16:11) And let’s go back to the early 1960s. (16:14) He was the Minister for Justice at the end of the Border Campaign. (16:18)
DL: That’s right.(16:19) And he set up the military ..
DB: .. tribunals,
DL: … the military tribunal, (16:31) where people would be tied by three military officers. (16:36) Now, I just take it, three of them: Tom Sullivan was the fifth man with us on that, (16:47) when we went to meet for the pick up at the… (16:51)
DB: Knockvicar
DL: Yes, Tom Sullivan was the fifth man. (16:55) I said it was Sean O’Neill he wasn’t, it was Tom Sullivan. (16:57) Tom Sullivan, Paddy Mulcahy Alf Larkin are just three people (17:03) who were tried by the special military courts.(17:09) Tom Sullivan was charged with having a weapon and got two years. (17:14) They were arrested on the 4th of December 1961, Tom Sullivan. (17:19) Paddy Mulcahy was arrested the same day.(17:21) He got 12 months because he had IRA documents. (17:25) Alf Larkin was on the last IRA operation in the six occupied counties and he got seven years. (17:40) Could you imagine them being happy with Charlie Haughey and his special military courts? (17:48)
DB: Well, overall, what was the effect of these military courts on the Border Campaign? (17:54)
DL: Well, the Border Campaign at that stage was actually winding down.(18:05) The sentences were much more (18:09) thorough when they were sentencing because, as I said, (18:14) Alf Larkin got the seven years, his part in that occupation. (18:19)
DB: I’ve described it somewhere in one of my writings that (18:22) Haughey extinguished the flickering embers of the Border Campaign (18:28) with the introduction of the military courts. (18:30) Would you agree or disagree with that? (18:32)
DL: It was winding down, but obviously the special military courts didn’t help us.(18:46)
DB: What type of view would your friends and colleagues in the Republican movement (18:51) have had of Haughey at that time and afterwards? (18:57)
DL: I can speak for everybody at that stage of everybody in the Limerick unit (19:01) would not have touched him with a barge pole. (19:06)
DB: And your colleagues that you’ve described who set up the Provisional IRA in Athlone, (19:12) at Victor Fagg house, what view would they have had of Hyde? (19:15)
DL: Exactly the same. (19:18)
DB: Okay.(19:18) Will you just elaborate on that view just a little bit more? (19:23)
DL: Well, what I said, there were the military courts – were Haughey. (19:31) What Haughey was at, I could never figure it out. (19:34) Who he was going to give the weapons to? (19:38)
DB: These are the Arms Crisis weapons that we’re talking about (19:40)
DL: Who was he going to give them to? (19:42) I don’t know. (19:42) So he certainly wasn’t going to give them to the Provisioners. (19:48)
DB: I see.(19:49) Now, if he was, would you have known? (19:52) At the time, would you have known? (19:55)
DL: I would, yes. (19:56) I was very much involved with the leadership of the IRA at that stage. (20:02)
DB: And after the Arms Crisis erupted, (20:06) and you would have been privy to all the discussions at the highest levels of the IRA, (20:11) was there ever any hint that those weapons were being brought in for the Provisional IRA? (20:17)
DL: No, never.(20:19) The only weapons that the IRA started to get was when Yann Goulet came to the Army Council. (20:28) Yann Goulet was a sculptor. (20:31) He was a Breton nationalist and he did a number of Republican monuments.(20:39) And he got contacted by people from Gaddafi’s people. (20:51)
DB: Oh yes, the Libya. (20:52)
DL: From Libya and said they were prepared to give weapons to the Provisional IRA.(20:58) He then came to the Provisional IRA and Dennis McInerney went to Libya. (21:08) to negotiate the weapons. (21:11) And the first shipment of weapons to the IRA that came in, came in from Libya.(21:18) And they were flown in by the, (21:22) Dennis McInerney was on the airplane that the Provisionals hired in Canada. (21:30) and got two Canadians to fly it. (21:34) Dennis McInerney was on it. (21:36) And they were to land at Farranfore. (21:39) Things went wrong and they were flown on to Shannon. (21:43) And they were landed in Shannon.(21:46)
DB: That’s the story, that’s the subject matter of a really interesting podcast that came out, (21:52) I think about a year ago. (21:53) And you cooperated with that. (21:55)
DL: I did, yes.(21:56) I was aware of the weapons were coming in and I was there in the area. (22:03) I lived in Shannon at the time. (22:05) I was on the run, but I was aware that the weapons were coming in.(22:10) And when they landed, I was then Director of Finance for the IRA. (22:18) And I had 5,000 US dollars, which we gave to the pilot for the next shipment that would fly. (22:30) Three more shipments.(22:31) Unfortunately, on the way back, the plane crashed. (22:35) The two pilots were killed. (22:38)
DB: And I think you were centrally involved as well in the early stages of the arms.(22:49)
DL: On the Libya. (22:51)
DB: The thing that ended up in Helvik with the Claudia. (22:55)
DL: The Claudia, I was.(22:57) I got instructions. (22:59) At that stage, I was Director of Finance for the IRA. (23:04) And I got a message from.(23:09)
DB: Well, all I want to establish is just that you were involved in all of these big arms (23:15) importations from abroad. (23:18)
DL: Yes. (23:19)
DL: So we go back now to April of 1970.(23:23) Were you in any way aware that weapons were going to be flown in from the Continent? (23:27) If memory serves me correctly 23:29) Vienna to Dublin Airport on the 17th, the weekend of the 17th of April, 1970. (23:34)
DL: No.(23:36)
DB: OK. (23:37) And. (23:38) Did you ever once in all your many discussions with all the top members (23:46) of the Provisional IRA, the leaders ever get the slightest hint that any of them had any (23:51) involvement or even knowledge of that? (23:54)
DL: And I got hints in the opposite direction to do with it.
DB: (23:59) Right. (24:02) Where do you think these stories come from then? (24:05) Where do you think these stories might come from? (24:09) Who has been spreading them? (24:11)
DL: One of the people on that trial was John Kelly. (24:16) John Kelly was a member of the Belfast IRA.(24:18) Now, I remember in the 50s campaign, he tried to escape from prison. (24:28)
DB: Crumlin Road , I think, wasn’t it? (24:30)
DL: That’s right.(24:31) and broke his leg and didn’t escape. (24:34) But. (24:36) He.(24:39) Nothing to do – when we set up the Provisionals. (24:42) He was not involved. (24:46) OK.(24:47)
DL: Later on, he later became the Director of Finance for the Provisional IRA. (24:53) I replaced him. (24:59)
DB: I see.(25:00) OK. (25:02) But where do you. (25:03) And if you don’t know, if you don’t have an opinion, well, that’s you don’t have an opinion.(25:07) You don’t know. (25:07) But have you any idea where these stories came that Haughey – put simply – helped set up the IRA; caused the split in the IRA.(25:20) People like you, Ruairí Ó Brádaigh and the rest of the leadership of the IRA who went with the (25:26) Provisionals as opposed to the Officials, did so because the master puppeteer, Charles Haughey, (25:33) was pulling your strings. (25:35)
DL: Charles Haughey never entered into discussions, ever, when we set up the Provisions. (25:43) Absolutely had nothing, would have had nothing to do with it. (25:47) We set it up because of the direction that the IRA had been taken by Goulding. (25:59)
DB: OK, Mr. Long, thank you very, very much for that.
David Burke is the author of four books published by Mercier Press:
These books can be purchased here: